Hiroshima

[kendo]

67 years ago today. Condolences to the Japanese people. Deeply embarrassed and eternally sorry.
Your resilience and strength of character is an example to us all.

[himog]

A terrible war crime, no doubt in my mind anyway. Nagasaki tomorrow. (the 9th)

B.t.w. probably even more people died in the fire bombing of Tokyo. Estimates vary.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokyo_firebombing

[penfolder]

... how much have we learnt from such a terrible event? sadly conflict has become a regular issue in the 21st Century.

[kendo]

Hi guys.

Yes, Nagasaki tomorrow. I agree the indescriminate firebombing of civilians is also a terrible war crime. Dresden, included. But, for me, the atomic bombs marked a particularly low point in humanity's history. Tomorrow, as on 'H' day, will be spent in quiet contemplation. And hoping that such events never transpire again.

I feel a demonstration would have sufficed. At sea. Or on an unpopulated island. To just drop them on cities without warning was (to my mind) cowardly. Disgraceful. And completely without honour.

admittedly, I was not there at the time. It was not my sons, brothers, uncles and fathers who would die in a protracted guerrilla war for control of the Japanese held islands. But having researched the subject in as much depth as I am able, I still cannot fathom their justification. Yes, the war ended, and quickly. But at what price? The world's moved on. As Paul says, there's has barely been a war free day since then. We seem to have learnt very little. But I think it is still important to not forget these days of infamy. Ever.

I hope everybody is well, and in good spirits.

[penfolder]

yep, it's a valid reminder that shouldn't be forgotten, unlike this country's involvement in the middle east which has become yesterday's headlines, not deemed relevant, not sensational enough, and its replacement, reality tv and wider poverty.

in high spirits here mate, lots on the horizon and thankfully keeping busy!

[Babaluma]

all japanee school kids make a pilgrimage to hiroshima, and the museum, when they are high school students, usually around the age of 14. my wife still shudders in remembrance of the sights that she saw (even though they were only photos), and how disturbed and saddened she was. we should all remember. and yes, resilience and strength of character is what you'll notice about the japanese people in times of trouble. i witnessed it myself during and after the big quake last year. incredible stamina and positive attitude during immense hardship.

[osiris]

Not to take away from any of the thoughts shared here - I agree with them all - but out of curiosity I must ask, what do you feel the likely outcome(s) would've been if the bombs hadn't been dropped?

[kendo]

Hi Nick. Sorry for the late response. I rarely surf the net these days. So apologies to anybody who feels slighted or ignored. I'm well and in good health. I hope everybody else is, too..... To answer your question.....

The end of the eastern war hinged on the Japanese capitulation or honourable surrender. Nobody has ever won a guerrilla war, ever. sun Tzu says it is impossible. The allies would have faced a long and protracted struggle, which would have been very costly in lives. Much like the impasse of the Somme in 1916. My guess is that it would have been a siege. A drawn out war of attrition. Who knows how long that would have continued?

The people who decided to drop the bomb, presumably thought they would be saving lives by committing the worst atrocity ever. It's not up to me to judge them. But I can judge what they did. And I feel that was wrong. The US had enough of a navy to sit offshore and sink everything that floated. Starving the islands into submission. The scattered nature of the islands, forts and dedicated defenders were a large problem, of course. But not one that couldn't also have been sorted out with sea superiority. Ie: sinking everything that floats. Especially fishing boats. And just waiting. Displaying patience. Rather than sending men indiscriminately to their doom in suicidal beach assaults under machine gun fire. (Like big John Wayne).

My overriding feeling is that the bomb was dropped, more of a threat and display to Stalin, than out of concern for shortening WW2. They could have invited a soviet and Japanese delegation to watch a sea burst from the relative safety of an aircraft carrier. To drop it on civilian cities first, was to my mind, inexcusable.

I'm not a general or military planner. I wasn't there on the day. But these are my thoughts on the matter.
So what is your take on it, Nick? I have several friends who are supportive of the bomb. I can see the view
That it did help save allied lives. It is the manner in which it was done, that I find most objectionable.

[osiris]

Hi Ken, no worries. I'd spend more time off the 'net if my job wasn't related. Maybe some day...

It's a very tricky subject and hindsight - although not in this case - is often 20/20. Here in the US, the history books teach us that we've done no wrong, we've bailed out all of our allies and have pushed civilization forward singlehandedly. Reading Chomsky and Zinn put me straight, a shock very similar to discovering that our parents indeed are not Santa's helpers as there is no Santa.

War is a foul and ugly thing. I couldn't tell you how necessary an evil it is because humanity seems to have known war for as long it has known food, shelter and sex. From what I've gathered, the only 'true' reasons for war are economical, the idealism is created for the citizens and for the troops. In the case of WWII, the US seemed like they had something to prove, and since the war wasn't on/near home soil, many innovations were attempted. Your statement of the bomb being a display to Stalin isn't something I've considered, and it's a great thought. Within the context of everything that immediately followed the war, it makes sense. I'd agree to the idea of cutting off vital resources, but there would have been many casualties going that route, a la Iraq in the 90s.

Never having been in the military or having a position of much authority, I don't know what I would have done. But holding the values that I do, and viewing human and all lives as something very special, dropping a weapon of that magnitude on civilian areas is unconscionable. Unfortunately, it doesn't appear the US had learned much after WWII, Vietnam, etc. Pearl Harbor is brought up from time to time this day, which is basically the precursor to 9/11 and the grudge-holding that my home country unfortunately obsesses over (including the Alamo in some parts).

[kendo]

http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/20 ... inst-japan

Hey Nick. I popped into red ice creations, and stumbled upon this article. The author 'George Washington' lays out a list of quotes from people involved with the decisions at the time. I found that an interesting read. But even more interesting were the comments underneath, examining everything in considerable detail. Interesting too, were the polar opposite viewpoints expressed by some Americans. ( a lot of name calling).

Quotes from the veterans viewpoints, seem to indicate the marines were grateful they didn't have to fight a guerrilla war in Japan. And the bomber pilots were mostly appalled at the destruction of civilian targets. One pro-bomb comment replier made the important point that the decision to drop the bomb was made in an air conditioned office somewhere, and not the frontline. Some say Japan was ready for surrender, after the sea blockade, and impending invasion from the Soviets. And others maintain that they would have continued fighting indefinitely.

I'm still of the opinion that a sea burst or warning shot would have sufficed. But I accept there are many and varied viewpoints, passionately held on the issue. Let us hope there is no more of it.

[osiris]

Great link, Ken. There are many powerful quotes on that page. Eisenhower being someone I've considered to be interesting for quite some time was quoted as saying

The Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn’t necessary to hit them with that awful thing.

, very powerful and sad. The comments - as often happens on the internet - are quite turbulent but in the context of this topic, opinions and comments should always be turbulent and should cause a variety of emotions. When we stop wondering and feeling, when this event is forgotten, maybe so too will our species.

[cdw]

One pro-bomb comment replier made the important point that the decision to drop the bomb was made in an air conditioned office somewhere, and not the frontline

Which is how modern warfare is heading - with the increased usage of un manned "drones" - so not only are decisions made not on the frontline the actual act of fighting is done thousands of miles away.